Out of the mouths of babes

"ttyymmnn" (ttyymmnn) 07/18/2019 at 11:59 • Filed to: None

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I !!!error: Indecipherable SUB-paragraph formatting!!! earlier about the drug raid that took place on my street this morning. My 13-year-old slept through all of this, and I showed him the pictures after he woke up.

I said, “They made a drug raid on that house this morning.”

And he said, “Who, the Army?”

Zing.

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:05

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I can understand why the cops want some tougher protection for operatins against cartels

https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-07-16/ms-13-murders-los-angeles-gang

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 07/18/2019 at 12:09

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I don’t have a problem with the cops needing to match the firepower of the bad guys, but if you can’t tell the cops from the army there is a serious problem. 

TheTurbochargedSquirrel > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:09

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The argument that they need an armored car for the SWAT team is undermined by the fact that a ton of other people arrived at the same time in standard Tahoes.

For Sweden > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:10

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Agreed; some black & white paint would help.

ttyymmnn > TheTurbochargedSquirrel 07/18/2019 at 12:10

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The Tahoes actually arrived a bit later. I did not see the arrival of the APC. But, as I said to ForSweden, if you can’t tell the difference between the cops and the army, there is a big problem. 

ttyymmnn > For Sweden 07/18/2019 at 12:10

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Or even uniforms that aren’t OD.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:18

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*sighs*

RutRut > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:21

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I don’t see it as a problem for SWAT/specific ops teams. Now if regular beat cops weren’t discernible that is different, but for the number of sincerely crazy and dangerous situations they end up in lately I would want every advantage too. For example, if you are raiding that mansion in Bel Air that is expected to have 1000 guns in it I would totally want armored transport and camo.

facw > RutRut 07/18/2019 at 12:28

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The biggest problem is that once a place has a SWAT team or whatever (and every place wants them, since even a tiny town can have a gun crazed weirdo), they want to use them. I don’t have any links handy right now, but I’ve definitely read things indicating that after a place gets a SWAT team, they have a significant increase in police violence, no knock warrants, etc .

ttyymmnn > RutRut 07/18/2019 at 12:28

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How does the camo help you in such a raid? I have zero problem with the cops matching firepower and protecting themselves. I just don’t see the requirement to look like soldiers. 

MrSnrub > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:33

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What’s the point of being a cop if you can’t LARP as a badass Special Operator troop ?

RutRut > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:38

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Because blending in generally helps with not being shot. If it was me, I would want every possible advantage for a situation like this, regardless if my attire made people feel uncomfortable that I looked too prepared. 

RutRut > facw 07/18/2019 at 12:42

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I don’t find that surprising, if you train a group of people to be more skilled in a specific task you would use them more often for that task or similar tasks .

ttyymmnn > RutRut 07/18/2019 at 12:44

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Reminds me of the US Marines in Beirut back in the 80s wearing jungle camo. Not much jungle in downtown Beirut, just like there’s not much grass or trees inside a house. I get your point. I am not anti-police. I am concerned that my son can’t tell the difference.

Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:44

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Pretty sure they just didn’t bother re-painting their military surplus purchase.

RutRut > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:47

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But there is a substantial amount of grass and trees between the road and house where you would see the most risk. I tend to take a super lenient view of how SWAT handles things purely based off that being a dedicated subsect for special weapons and tactics (by definition). DNR is in OD attire generally, doesn’t make them bad. 

ttyymmnn > RutRut 07/18/2019 at 12:49

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I’m not saying that any of this makes them “bad.” But there is valid concern in this country about the militarization of the civilian police force, and I want my son to be able to tell the difference between a cop and a soldier. Hell, I want to be able to tell the difference.

RutRut > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 12:53

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Well here is a hypothetical, what if we eliminated all SWAT and instead used reserves/national guard as their replacement? Cops never look like soldiers, soldiers do what they are trained for. Personally I’m not concerned with the militarization, with the capex we put into that equipment we should try to reuse it for critical/high risk situations. 

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:10

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I guess we have nicer criminals in the Netherlands

Most of the time a drug bust is just a bunch of beat cops turning up and ringing the doorbell (course they will also be out back by then)

Then again all of our cops are armed and most of our criminals arent

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:10

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Marines in Iraq, 2003...

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:12

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This is why I’m not a cop today. I found the Albuquerque Police Department way too similar to the Marine Corps. There were plenty of things I didn’t like about the Marine Corps, but I could generally reconcile how it all squared with a mission along the lines of “to locate, engage and destroy the enemy by fire and maneuver.” When I saw that same mentality in a civilian police department where the mission is supposed to be along the lines of “to protect and serve,” I got to the end of the academy and realized I couldn’t square how the organization worked with what it’s mission is supposed to be. In the interest of being able to sleep at night, I told them thanks, but no thanks. That is all to say the DOJ report that lead to the consent degree they now operate under for unconstitutional policing reads like a list of reasons why I’m not there. I even trained with some of the officers called out by name in the DOJ report for  repeatedly shooting people who probably didn’t need to be shot.

ttyymmnn > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 07/18/2019 at 13:13

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Then again all of our cops are armed and most of our criminals aren’t

Which is exactly why gun owners in this country believe that the Second Amendment is so important. Many believe that we need to have guns to protect us from the government itself. 

ttyymmnn > DipodomysDeserti 07/18/2019 at 13:14

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Those are MOPP suits , though, for protection from chemical weapons. The military wan’t about to manufacture tens of thousands of them in desert camo.

DipodomysDeserti > RutRut 07/18/2019 at 13:16

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What about beat cops dressing like this?

Also, in some departments, regular beat cops are also on  SWAT.

ttyymmnn > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 13:16

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That is all to say the DOJ report that lead to the consent degree they now operate under for unconstitutional policing reads like a list of reasons why I’m not there.

Can you go into more detail about this, or provide a link? I’d like to know more.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:20

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It has been pointed out to me.....

Youre going to need a little more firepower for that me thinks

Personally I like the cops being armed and not many others.... They rarely shoot anyone here... sizeable amount of paperwork

But each to their own

RutRut > DipodomysDeserti 07/18/2019 at 13:20

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But how often do you see a regular cop fully kitted for SWAT operations just cruising around? I have no issue with police going full paramilitary if it is appropriate for the situation.

DipodomysDeserti > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 13:22

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Two of my friends who were Marines are now cops. Well, one still is. The other was a BP agent, got fired from that (not sure how you manage that) , then got fired as a city cop a few years later. Killed  a guy in his first year on the job. Turns out Marine snipers aren’t very well suited for law enforcement.

ttyymmnn > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 07/18/2019 at 13:24

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It can go either way. I would love for there to be fewer guns in this country. But the government always thinks that the answer to mass shootings is more guns. But then you also run into a situation like they had in the London Bridge terrorist attack where they had to call and wait for armed officers to arrive.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 13:27

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I appreciate your reply very much. Thank you for your honesty. I am a very big supporter of the police, and see their necessity in our civilization, but they need more options besides talk and shoot.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 13:27

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Courageous decision on your part.

His Stigness > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:29

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That scene is beyond disturbing. 

DipodomysDeserti > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:31

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Not for Marines at least. In 2003 the military was pissing money away paying contractors for goods.   A good friend of mine participated in the 2003 invasion. His plate carrier as well as his humvee were both woodland style camo.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:33

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https://www.justice.gov/usao/nm/press-releases/APD/140410%20DOJ-APD%20Findings%20Letter.pdf

That’s full report, when you’re in the mood for a little light reading. I’ll expand on my own takes and a few related things later . I’m not willing to do that amount of typing on my phone.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-nm/pr/summary-department-justices-findings-albuquerque-police-department-investigation

That’s the top line findings.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:38

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Maybe that’s the key - maybe if there was more trust in the government, people wouldn’t be so afraid of it?

InFierority Complex > DipodomysDeserti 07/18/2019 at 13:39

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I think regular cops being on SWAT is a pretty common thing. It’s an additional duty on top of their regular police role. I don’t think a lot of cities/counties have the resources to hire someone just to be on SWAT.

Svend > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 13:42

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Lol. This is how our police responded to a 21 year old with an air rifle shooting at birds in my city the other day.

Seven vehicles.

Three Peugeot Experts, two Ford Transit Customs, one Mercedes Sprinter and BMW 3 Series estate.

Our armed police are less military.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo 07/18/2019 at 13:43

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Thanks. I appreciate the necessity of what they do, but we have some very fundamental problems with how it is being done today, and to some degree who is doing it. On the flip side, we also need to rethink we’re considering a crime and how we’re dealing with it. We’re too often asking police departments to do an impossible job that they’re not equipped or trained for. Perhaps going outwardly aggressive while also pulling inward and circling the wagons to back each other to any end is the natural response to that.

DipodomysDeserti > RutRut 07/18/2019 at 13:48

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Depends what you mean by fully kitted out. I regularly see cops here wearing plate carriers and drop leg holsters. A lot of the SD uniforms here are OD green as well. Almost all of our cops have M4s mounted in their cruisers and even on their motorcycles.

However, you know they mean business when they bring Steven Segal with them.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > DipodomysDeserti 07/18/2019 at 13:54

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That matches my experience. The Albuquerque Police Department and the local sheriff’s office have hired a whole bunch of recon operators out of that unit over the last 10-15 years, and those guys have gone on to shoot an awful lot of people as cops. It turns out I knew a good portion of the cops that have shot people in ABQ over the last 10 years (and often under questionable circumstances), and with only one exception I have not been in the least surprised.

One of those operators shot a dude who pointed a brake pad in his general direction. He’s still a cop, and has been involved in a few other shootings. One of those guys shot a dude in the back and killed him as he was running away after the guy tried to break into his personal vehicle in his driveway. He’s also still a cop. The cop named in the report for shooting three different people under questionable circumstances that he escalated was in my academy class. He was a former active-duty infantry Marine, and he was the most gung-ho guy you could imagine in the academy. Ol’ Pitzy was all but  foaming at the mouth to go out and get his first bust.

ttyymmnn > DipodomysDeserti 07/18/2019 at 13:57

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Marines and Soldiers  are trained to kill. Civilian cops should only kill as a last resort. For too many cops these days, shooting is the first thing.

ttyymmnn > BaconSandwich is tasty. 07/18/2019 at 13:58

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I think it’s an excuse more than anything. 

ttyymmnn > Svend 07/18/2019 at 13:59

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That’s my point. They are kitted out with  military gear, but they still LOOK like cops. Civilians, answerable to civilian authority, not soldiers.

ttyymmnn > BaconSandwich is tasty. 07/18/2019 at 14:02

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I think the “protect yourself from the government” argument has been around since the 2A was written. 

ttyymmnn > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 14:13

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Thanks. 

ttyymmnn > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 14:15

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The pre-Trump DOJ. I’m sure they would say, “No, you’re doing great!” today. 

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 14:25

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13 year olds sleep through anything.

ttyymmnn > Chariotoflove 07/18/2019 at 14:27

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Tangentially related, I saw a study that found that kids react and wake up more readily to their parents’ voices than they do to a loud noise. So any smoke detector/fire alarm in a house with children should really say, “Johnny!! Wake up!!” They had video where kids slept like a rock while the alarm was blaring, but as soon as the parent said their name they woke right up.

Of course, those were younger kids. You need a crane to get my boys out of bed in the morning. 

Svend > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 14:28

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Ye’, sometimes after a terrorist attack or one highly expected the military may patrol with the police in certain areas, but can always tell them apart (unless they are special forces and maybe wearing civilian clothing with a 'police' bulletproof vest on and balaclava). 

The counter terrorism task force are different.

Chariotoflove > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 14:29

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My mom woke us up by pulling out my trombone and “ playing” it from the bottom of the stairs. Dammit but it was effective.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 14:30

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To some degree. Fortunately these kinds of things are usually commenced and carried out by career folks. The consent decree is being supervised by a court appointed independent monitor, who answers only to a federal judge. At one point the police department tried to get the guy ousted via digging up/manufacturing dirt on him (and going through the motions but not actually operationally implementing changes) , and the city counci l at one point bristled at having to pay someone they had literally zero ability to control. In both instances, the federal judge told the city counci l, city attorney and police chief where to stick it, along with  essentially the classic message of “bring your tooth brush” should any future hearings be necessary on these particular issues .

ttyymmnn > Svend 07/18/2019 at 14:31

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But still not green camo or olive drab. 

Svend > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 14:36

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No, though there may be times conditions necessitate it (ie in undergrowth) but these forces operate in cities. If they wore camo or OD there would be a lot of questions being asked as to why. 

BaconSandwich is tasty. > ttyymmnn 07/18/2019 at 14:49

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People seem to have forgotten that amendments are allowed. Times change. Situations change.  Laws may also need to change.

InFierority Complex > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 16:09

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I couldn’t believe how many guys wanted to go into law enforcement after getting out. Like, you’re all bitching about this job but you want to go into another one with uniforms and ranks and all that shit? Weird.

There does seem to be a huge sense of “us vs them” that has made it’s way into law enforcement. I don’t know if it’s recent or not, I had a family friend that was a local police officer for a few decades and never got that feeling from him. It just seems like the current trend is to think of themselves as apart from the community rather than a part of it.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > InFierority Complex 07/18/2019 at 16:18

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Agreed.  I don't know if it was always there, but today we've got law enforcement chalked full of a warrior mentality, and they very much see themselves as an other.  That's dangerous in my line of of thinking.

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > Chan - Mid-engine with cabin fever 07/18/2019 at 17:54

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They didn’t even have to pay for it. They apply through the Defense Logistics Agency for surplus equipment. I think they might pay transportation costs, but otherwise the equipment is free to s tate and local LE agencies. (I recall them being required to offer it for return upon demand or before surplusing it themselves).

ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com > InFierority Complex 07/18/2019 at 18:06

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That is usually the case. SWAT is a highly competitive special unit appoinent once an officer has reached a certain amount of time in service. Usually they still do a certain amount of normal patrol shifts in addition to training and respond to SWAT (I think SRT, special reaction team in becoming the new invouge term) call outs as needed. Something along the lines of training 1-2 shifts per week, and then working 2-3 patrol shifts with their gear in the back ready to go. Thes e guys tend to get a lot of overtime. Generally only the biggest departments have SWAT/SRT units that are full time assignments with no patrol responsibilities.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > ITA97, now with more Jag @ opposite-lock.com 07/18/2019 at 19:19

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I am an educator and I see first-hand how that heavy handed approach does not work. I mean, there have to be consequences, but consequences seldom deal with root causes of behavior. But I'm not asking cops to be shrinks, just to develop more tactics than reaching for a sidearm or a taser.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > InFierority Complex 07/18/2019 at 19:22

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Difference: cops are civilians and unionized and don't have to pay lip service to a Geneva Convention. Not that all cops are this way, but how many murderous, unaccountable examples do you need before the entire career field is besmirched? And under The Code, who is going to speak out?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > For Sweden 07/18/2019 at 19:24

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You have the most sardonic sense of humor of anyone I have ever encountered.